Hi All,

Great site! I've been checking it out as a guest for some time now and have just signed up as a member. I've got an '05 Roadie (black cherry) and absolutely love this bike, but lately she's been a misbehavin'. I'm hoping you guys can shed some light on the situation for me, and I hope you don't mind that my first post is a help request. By the way, here's a very short intro: I work as an electrical tech. in NW Ohio. I like guitar pickin' and motorcycle riding. I can find my way around the garage pretty well, but this is the first bike carb I've worked on.

Let me tell you what I have...

Late last winter/early spring I lost the stock exhaust/intake for a set of Bub Big Willys and a Yamaha Speedstar (K&N) Competition Air Filter kit. I also installed the Speedstar Jet Kit. Here are the settings that I used (per the Yamaha Stage II config. manual):

Main Jet: 165
Pilot Jet: 50
Needle Jet: 5th
clip position
Air Screw : 2-1/2
(turns out)

It was an immediate improvement, and I was pleased. She seemed to be running good all spring/summer. Then within the past few weeks she started acting up. She starts fine (use choke and let it warm up a bit), idles fine, and seems to be normal as I take off down the road. But, when I shift from third to fourth and on, it coughs and sputters and almost wants to die. I shift back down to third and it picks up again. It'll do this for a few miles down the road, but as she comes completely up to temp, she starts behaving pretty normal. I can then shut her down and come back within an hour or so and she still seems to behave. She has left an occasional pop from the exhaust on shutdown, and will only occasionally pop from the intake on a throttle blip. Doesn't really pop/backfire on decel (side note: still has the AIS, but it will be removed as soon as my kit arrives).

I had the carb off the other day to be sure that the PMS hadn't worked out, and it was still at 2-1/2 turns out. I did notice something possibly suspicious (not sure, can't remember)... This carb body has a couple of threaded holes with nothing in them right? One on the bottom, and one on the upper left ( when you're facing the bike with the carb mounted)? I couldn't remember for sure and wanted to be sure nothing worked its way out.

The temps are getting cooler her in Ohio (Elev. 738 ft), but this change to the Roadie seemed to be pretty abrupt.

The service manual suggests that this could be the result of a loose or clogged main jet, but why then does it seem to be related to the engine temp?

Any advice/comments is GREATLY appreciated!! I just want my gal back to normal again

Later,
Rieps

(sorry if I wrote a book, guess I got carried away)

Welcome to the forum, riepenba! Sorry your Roadie is acting up and your first post has to be problem-related, but most people's seem to be...my first post here sure was! But this is a great group and they really helped me out.

I'm no expert wrench by any means, and I'm certainly no Doc, but your problem sounds kinda familar. First, I'd guess that from the settings you mentioned, you're running REALLY rich...especially with that pilot! I've never even heard of a 50! But Yamaha seems to set everything too rich, and too rich leads to sticky valves from carbon buildup. THAT much I know from experience (that was my first post/problem here! ). Sounds like it could be valves sticking and loosening up when they warm. Mine was that way. Either that, or I guess it could be a vacuum leak some where that seals itself when the now-colder parts heat, expand & seal.

Roadies are notorious for "sticky valve syndrome" I've come to find out from lots of reading & asking here and on the R* Riders forum. I solved mine thanks to Doc's suggestion of the Marvel Mystery Oil Treatment...I'll be damned if it didn't work like a charm! I leaned my stock carb way out--DJ 175 main jet, DJ needle on clip 4, stock pilot jet, PMS at 2.75, Speedstar K&N airbox, Hard Krome 3" Big Straights,and some nice hot NGK plugs.

Anyway, I'm no expert bike wrench by any means (still learning from these guys...just got my '04 Roadie in June), but I've had plenty of experience working on cars. So, those are my two guesses...now I'll step back and let the experts take a stab at it!

Welcome again!

RK<br><br>Post edited by: Roadkill1962, at: 2006/10/02 07:59

Intersting carb settings.

At this time of year in the north the temps get cooler and the bikes tend to run leaner. Looking at your settings you are on the rich side for the low and midrange throttle positions so in theory you should be running OK at part throttle.

As RK suggested I'd do a treatment with MMO, Yamaha RingFree, Seafoam or equivalent to clean out the inards. It could be that you have some carbon problems and it's always nice to rule that out.

You are very rich at idle (#50) and if you let it warm up that only aggravates the carbon problem. I usually start with choke, push in partway and then take off. When I push the rest of the choke in depends on the temperature ... about &frac12; mile in summer and 1-2 miles in cold weather.

Once you have it all cleaned out try the WOT test. I suspect the 165 should be OK but it does not hurt to test.

If you need to take the carb apart, check the float level first. The symptoms you describe (warm vs cold) can also be attributed to incorrect float settings. If incorrect then you can change it when you pull the carb rather than doing it twice.

Once the main is nailed down, move the needle to 4 and change the #50 back to stock (#35). Leave the PMS where it is.

Test drive .... re-tune.

Doc

Thanks for the welcome and the advice!!

I rode to work today, and there wasn't really any sputtering either way (left at 6:30 am and returned at 7:00 pm). Still, something seems a bit different. The exhaust note seems a bit more &quot;tinny&quot;. Maybe that is related to having the windshield on. I usually don't put it on in the fall until I absolutely have to (love the gravel and bugs in my teeth )

The only other info I thought of that could relate to the problems, was that I rode it into work on some pretty foggy mornings around the time that the problems showed up. FYI.

Also, when I got home tonight, just before I was gonna park, I gave her a few good revs. She shot flames out the pipes. Doc, guess this would reaffirm the rich condition you suspected, huh? The flames were pretty cool. Do I have to get rid of them?

I'm gonna try the advice that you guys gave me as soon as I can get to it (I also farm with my Dad, and it's harvest time). I'll keep you posted on my progress.

Regarding the possible carbon buildup, am I endangering the Roadie if I don't take care of it ASAP (abrasiveness of carbon)?

Thank You again for the help!!!! I look forward to participating in the forum

Hi All,

Spring's finally starting to show up here in NW Ohio, and my attention's back on the R*.

Doc, I was able to run a few tanks with the MMO through her late last fall/early winter, and that definately helped things. Thanks! So, this past week I went ahead with the other recommendations...

Did the WOT test, and as you suspected, the 165 main seems to be acceptable.

Checked the float level. It was a little low (was near where bowl screw met bowl (measured on back, closest to motor)). The Yamaha service manual says .16-.2&quot; above bowl/carb mating surface. Many on R* Riders Forum said even with the mating surface. I went about .125&quot; above mating surface.

Moved the needle clip from the 5th to the 4th slot, and also swapped the pilot jet back to the stock (35) as prescribed.

Kept the PMS at 2.5 turns out.

...started it up and let it warm up for a few minutes. It idles fine (with and without choke). However, if you try to rev the engine, it coughs as soon as you crack the throttle. I took it out for a long drive to be sure it was good and warmed up, but I would still get the cough/stutter when the throttle was somewhere below 1/4 open (5th gear, 55-60MPH).

I checked and double checked that there were no air leaks between the carb and the manifold as discussion on the R* Riders Forum indicated that they could cause this problem.

I'm not sure what to try next... PMS, accelerator pump, go back to old settings?

Any advice is GREATLY aprreciated!

Thanks,
Brian

I aplogize but I missed your second post.

If you were getting flames and backfiring then that's a sure sign that things are getting carboned up. You would need to 'clean' it out before attempting to tune the carb.

One thing to keep in mind ..... if you stored you bike over the winter without draining the carb, clean the carb if you are getting poor results. It amazing how little residue can screw it up.

First thing about carb tuning is to make one change at a time. That way it's easier to determine what effect that change has on your specific conditions.

Did the WOT test, and as you suspected, the 165 main seems to be acceptable.

Good. Then we know the upper range is OK.

Checked the float level. It was a little low (was near where bowl screw met bowl (measured on back, closest to motor)). The Yamaha service manual says .16-.2&quot; above bowl/carb mating surface. Many on R* Riders Forum said even with the mating surface. I went about .125&quot; above mating surface.
I checked and double checked that there were no air leaks between the carb and the manifold

It's good you checked these out; they can really screw you up.

Moved the needle clip from the 5th to the 4th slot,and also swapped the pilot jet back to the stock (35) as prescribed.

'Normal' starting (or finishing) setting for most.

...started it up and let it warm up for a few minutes. It idles fine (with and without choke).

Do you need to use the choke to start it up?

However, if you try to rev the engine, it coughs as soon as you crack the throttle. I took it out for a long drive to be sure it was good and warmed up, but I would still get the cough/stutter when the throttle was somewhere below 1/4 open (5th gear, 55-60MPH).

So I'm assuming that the bike runs good in the midrange 1/4 to 3/4 throttle. It doesn't bog down or 'lung' at speed.

Sounds like you have the 'lean cough' and you need to richen it up a bit. If you need to use the choke to start the bike then try pulling the choke out a bit and then test the throttle. The cough should disappear.

If you have temps like I have temps then you will be running a bit lean in comparison to summer.

First try adjusting your PMS. Turn it slowly in until it begins to run rough. Then counting the turns, turn it out slowly until it begins to run rough. Set the PMS halfway between these two points. Test again.

If it still coughs then go to the next size pilot (37.5) and test.

Are the accelerator pump settings stock?

Doc

Doc,

I do have to use the choke to get it to start, and you guessed it, with the choke on, I can crack the throttle and no cough.

And, yes, she's running good in the midrange.

I'll get to work on the PMS setup you described this afternoon. Hopefully I won't need to go up to the bigger pilot jet (37.5) because Yamaha didn't include one in the SpeedStar kit (all I got was a 50 and 60). I'm finding that the SpeedStar kit probably wasn't the best choice Any suggestions where to pick up the 37.5 if needed?

Also, I haven't touched the accelerator pump, so it should still be at the factory setting.

As far as the weather, it's sunny and low 60s now (but windy), and tomorrow's supposed to be nicer. Not normal temps for March in NW Ohio, but I'll take 'em. Hopefully, thanks to your advice, I'll be riding her into work tomorrow!

Time for me to get to work!

Thanks,
Brian

Don't know why Yamaha recommends the #50. They must know something we don't regarding their components.

I could be that their needle is fatter than other after market needles.

You can get Mikuni pilots from any dealer. If not, there there are a number of on-line dealers that will ship you one, but the cost of shipping is more than the needle. In that case, it's best to buy a range of jets.

Leave the accelerator alone until the idle is dialed in.

Doc

Howdie Doc,

I've got an update for ya: I went ahead and put in the 37.5 pilot jet and, after a couple drives, ended up with the PMS out 3.5 turns. All but the very rare cough (with the throttle just barely cracked) were gone. I was satisfied for the time being (with the intention of moving up to a #40 in the near future to totally rid her of the cough) and took her on a 120 mile ride (one way, over night) this past weekend. It was mostly freeway riding (65-80MPH) in 5th gear.

Here's the bad news: when I got home on Sunday moring, I could tell that the heat shields on my Bub Big Willy exhaust system were blued (much more than they had originally been and the front (tighter bend) worse than the back) up near the motor Assuming this was caused by being a bit too lean, I went ahead and put the #50 pilot back in just to be safe (PMS back at 2.5 turns out). Right away, the smell of unburnt gas came back when I would shut the bike down (so I know it's too rich this way). As soon as I get a chance, I'm gonna pick up a #40 and #45. You think maybe I should go up to the #170 on the main jet? Maybe I'm not a sensitive enough rider to rely on the WOT test? I'd rather error just on the safe side than have the perfectly tuned machine. Do you think it's possible/likely that I did any damage to the motor running it this way?

Also, you have any experience with Blue Away or similar? The front shield looks pretty bad, so I'm either gonna have to replace it ($115 from Bub) or rechrome it (unless the Blue Away works). You know of any good internet based chromers?

Thanks for the help,
Brian

I have no experience with Blue Away or would I use any such product on any of my chrome. Most polishes contain fine abrasives which will 'cloud' chrome. Use it enough times and chrome looks like polished aluminum.

Here's something I found .... http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/blue-away/

It's very unusual for heat shields to turn blue.

You've probably heard that gold is good (rich), blue is bad (lean). It's doesn't always work this way. A lean mix will cause the pipes to turn blue but a very rich mix will also cause the pipes to blue.

In the very rich scenario, there is incomplete burning of the mix in the cylinder and the mix ignites inside the pipes causing the pipes to overheat and turn blue.

Idling for extended periods of time will also result in pipes blueing.

Looking at your setup (Mikuni 165, 5th clip, 37.5 pilot), I can't see how you're running that lean or rich. These are not unusual settings.

Try putting in the 167.5 main jet and do the WOT. Is there a difference between the WOT of the 165 and the 167.5?

Doc