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TOPIC: Re:NITROGEN VS AIR
#111222
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 3 Months, 1 Week ago  
roadstar_rider wrote:
nitrogen leak out of spokes???? every week i loose bout 1-2 psi will this be the same for nitrogen??

It shouldn't be leaking from your spokes with the tubes in your tires!
 
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 3 Months, 1 Week ago  
So to you dealer guys, is this pretty common amongst dealers? Does it mean that a commoner could come up and ask to have tires filled? Would it cost? Cheers.

Dan
 
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 3 Months, 1 Week ago  
roadstar_rider wrote:
nitrogen leak out of spokes???? every week i loose bout 1-2 psi will this be the same for nitrogen??

What JGC said. If you're losing that much pressure each week, you probably have a small puncture somewhere. No big deal if you don't mind filling it, but, I'd recommend doing a very detailed tire and valve inspection.

I had a very thin piece of metal go into my front tire a while back. The tire kept losing air and then started going flat overnight and I couldn't find anything. I finally took it to the stealer and they couldn't find it either. They replaced the tube, thinned out my wallet and gave it back to me. With the metal still in the tire! I remounted it and next day, guess what?

My only satisfaction is that they had to do the work and replace the tube on them. I was stuck with removal/repacement twice on my end though.

I guess what it comes down to is that you don't want to get stuck somewhere if it gets worse.
 
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 3 Months, 1 Week ago  
RangerDan wrote:
So to you dealer guys, is this pretty common amongst dealers? Does it mean that a commoner could come up and ask to have tires filled? Would it cost? Cheers.

Dan


Most acr dealers should have a machine by now. I don't see why they wouldn't fill your tires but most tire stores have it available now, too. It's only an $8000 machine!
Look around; I figure you can find a place to do it for $5 - $10 tire.
 
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago  
I have had it in my 06 for 2 1/2 years. I have never had to add psi. thats right allmost 3 years! allways 32psi. plus its prolly just in my head, but I think it rides softer.
 
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago  
gotta say guys, workshops filling with nitrogen is selling snake oil.

what are you breathing at the moment? air, and 78% of this is made up of nitrogen! so effectively the workshop is charging 10 bucks a tyre to fill a tyre with an extra 22% nitrogen.

add to this that you have to remove ALL the air in a tyre to fill with pure nitrogen, unless the tyre is `vacuumed´ out before filling, when they fill it you´ve still got something resembling the air you breathe.

running cooler? in racing and aeronautical applications, yes i can see it. but on a road tyre you want to get up to temp ASAP, so even if the workshop did manage to fill with 100% nitrogen, your warmup time would be (slightly) reduced. when was the last time you heard of a bike tyre exploding from overheating if it was at the right pressure, or at all for that matter?

now the oxidation problem. for cars, possibly due to the ammount of time between tyre changes on steel rims. on bike steel bike rims you do get a bit of rust, but is it that much of an issue? and with ally rims it ceases to be an issue at all.

pressure loss? i check my air filled tubed tyres regually. 2psi loss in the last 4 months on the front, and zero rear.

i have no idea whatsoever why the u.s. govt wants this to be mandatory, as in reality the safety aspects are negligable if any. mebbe theres a nitrogen tax coming
 
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Last Edit: 2008/09/10 07:32 By erizo.
 


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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago  
i have no idea whatsoever why the u.s. govt wants this to be mandatory, as in reality the safety aspects are negligable if any. mebbe theres a nitrogen tax coming

huh... haven't heard that one yet...


roadstar_rider wrote: nitrogen leak out of spokes???? every week i loose bout 1-2 psi will this be the same for nitrogen?? are you running tubless,, That's my next project, what method did you use?
 
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#118233
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago  
I don't know about all that, here is what I found after a quick search, I also have used nitrogen in aircraft tires from 1979, there is a reason for that, nothing better is out there.

If you are one of the 85% of Americans who
doesn't regularly check tire pressure,
you need nitrogen.

We take in nitrogen with every breath. Air is composed of:

* 1% Water Vapor and Other Gases – Escapes up to 250 times faster than Nitrogen
* 21% Oxygen – Escapes 3-4 times faster than Nitrogen
* 78% Nitrogen – The largest molecule in
air, dry, non-flammable.

Because of their large size, nitrogen molecules are the least permeable and stay in your tire longer.

It's not about the nitrogen. It's about reducing oxygen, water vapor and other gases.

By reducing the percentage of oxygen, water vapor and other gases in your tires from 22% to 7% or lower, your tires will maintain proper pressure longer than if you use “plain old air.” For example, with 95% nitrogen in your tires, they retain optimal pressure three to four times longer.

Proper tire pressure is a big deal.
Maintain it with nitrogen, and you'll see
these three primary benefits:

* Increased Fuel Efficiency – Correct tire pressure keeps the manufacturer's recommended “contact patch” on the road. This lessens the rolling resistance and maximizes fuel efficiency. Read On...

* Longer Tire Life – When it comes in contact with other materials, oxygen causes oxidation. Oxidation can make rubber brittle and cause it to lose tensile strength. In addition, at high temperatures and pressures, oxygen reacts and damages inner tire liners and belt packages; nitrogen does not. Read On...

* Increased Safety – Under-inflated tires cause 90% of blowouts. Nitrogen provides more reliable pressure for reduced blowout potential. Read On...

Other benefits:

* Improved TPMS Performance – If you have a new car, you likely are plagued by a flashing light telling you your tire pressure is low. For example, one woman's light was going off every four to five weeks. After inflating with nitrogen, her light didn't reappear for 53 weeks!

* More Predictable Pressure Fluctuation – NASCAR teams use nitrogen so they can more accurately predict tire pressure fluctuation. Regular compressed air can fluctuate considerably when water vapor is present. Read On...

* Longer Rim Life – Rim rust caused by condensation from water vapor and other gases can get caught in valves and create slow leaks in tires. Nitrogen is completely dry, so it eliminates the potential for condensation.



Why not eliminate all oxygen and water vapor?
What's right for me – 95% or 98%?

Numerous studies have proven that nitrogen in tires reduces the volume of gases that escape more quickly and cause damaging oxidation. However, research also has shown that nitrogen purity beyond a certain point does not provide additional benefits. In fact, with a nitrogen purity above 93.4%? in passenger tires, oxygen actually begins to migrate back into the tire. You can get all the benefits of nitrogen with a purity level between 93-98%.

* Bridgestone/Firestone researchers say that 93-95% nitrogen is all you need. Read On...

* According to Ford Motor Co., there is no difference between 96% and 99% nitrogen purity. Read On...

Who Else Is Using Nitrogen?

* NASCAR - NASCAR teams use nitrogen because it allows them to more accurately predict tire pressure fluctuation. Nitrogen fluctuates with temperature change, but it does so less than when water vapor is present. Read On... In addition, higher nitrogen levels eliminate the explosive properties of oxygen (oxygen loses its explosive properties at around 9% or less) Read On... NASCAR uses bottled nitrogen for portability. The bottles are delivered to the track by Praxair. Read On...

* Commercial Airlines – The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) requires nitrogen in all commercial aircraft tires to eliminate the potential for water vapor (inherent in normal compressed air) from freezing at high altitudes. In addition, aircraft manufacturers such as Boeing use nitrogen membranes in their On-Board Inert Gas Generation Systems (OBIGGS) to "top" fuel tanks with nitrogen - an inert gas that does not support combustion.

* U.S. Government – NASA and the U.S. military use nitrogen for many of the same reasons it used in commercial aircraft.

* Food Processors and Packagers – Oxygen hastens both the chemical breakdown and microbial spoilage of many foods. Think meat, potato chips, cookies, etc. To help preserve foods longer, processors and packagers often use modified atmosphere packaging (MAP) and controlled atmosphere packaging (CAP) that replaces some or all of the oxygen in the air inside the
package with nitrogen.

How is nitrogen separated from other gases in air?

Membranes are the heart of any nitrogen system. Just like a tire, the membranes are permeable. When thousands of these permeable tubes are filled with air at high pressures, smaller molecules leak out while the larger nitrogen molecules travel through the tubes into a holding tank to fill your tires or
for other uses.
 
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#118235
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago  
erizo wrote:
gotta say guys, workshops filling with nitrogen is selling snake oil.

what are you breathing at the moment? air, and 78% of this is made up of nitrogen! so effectively the workshop is charging 10 bucks a tyre to fill a tyre with an extra 22% nitrogen.

add to this that you have to remove ALL the air in a tyre to fill with pure nitrogen, unless the tyre is `vacuumed´ out before filling, when they fill it you´ve still got something resembling the air you breathe.

running cooler? in racing and aeronautical applications, yes i can see it. but on a road tyre you want to get up to temp ASAP, so even if the workshop did manage to fill with 100% nitrogen, your warmup time would be (slightly) reduced. when was the last time you heard of a bike tyre exploding from overheating if it was at the right pressure, or at all for that matter?

now the oxidation problem. for cars, possibly due to the ammount of time between tyre changes on steel rims. on bike steel bike rims you do get a bit of rust, but is it that much of an issue? and with ally rims it ceases to be an issue at all.

pressure loss? i check my air filled tubed tyres regually. 2psi loss in the last 4 months on the front, and zero rear.

i have no idea whatsoever why the u.s. govt wants this to be mandatory, as in reality the safety aspects are negligable if any. mebbe theres a nitrogen tax coming


I'll clarify two points...
With the new machines they aren't doing a 'fill', they are filtering the air in the tires to remove the oxygen.
And the oxidation that they are talking about is to the tires, not to the wheel. Oxygen starts attacking rubber as soon as it touches it. We know it as dry-rot.
Personally, I just like seeing the same air pressure every time I check my tires without having to add any.
 
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Re:NITROGEN VS AIR 2 Months, 3 Weeks ago  
Hotelfox wrote:
I don't know about all that, here is what I found after a quick search, I also have used nitrogen in aircraft tires from 1979, there is a reason for that, nothing better is out there.

quite right mate! for aeronautical applications there isn´t better

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
If you are one of the 85% of Americans who
doesn't regularly check tire pressure,
you need nitrogen.

We take in nitrogen with every breath. Air is composed of:

* 1% Water Vapor and Other Gases – Escapes up to 250 times faster than Nitrogen
* 21% Oxygen – Escapes 3-4 times faster than Nitrogen
* 78% Nitrogen – The largest molecule in
air, dry, non-flammable.


right, so they got that bit right

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
Because of their large size, nitrogen molecules are the least permeable and stay in your tire longer.

sorry, but i gotta laugh at that one!

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
It's not about the nitrogen. It's about reducing oxygen, water vapor and other gases.

so that´s the theory, lets continue

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
By reducing the percentage of oxygen, water vapor and other gases in your tires from 22% to 7% or lower, your tires will maintain proper pressure longer than if you use “plain old air.” For example, with 95% nitrogen in your tires, they retain optimal pressure three to four times longer.

300% increase in pressure retention from a 13% decrease in other gasses? some fuzzy math going on here

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
Proper tire pressure is a big deal.
Maintain it with nitrogen, and you'll see
these three primary benefits:


Increased Fuel Efficiency – Correct tire pressure keeps the manufacturer's recommended “contact patch” on the road. This lessens the rolling resistance and maximizes fuel efficiency. Read On...


yessss, and us grownups know that keeping the tyre pressures correct is a major safety issue, so we check them regually

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* Longer Tire Life – When it comes in contact with other materials, oxygen causes oxidation. Oxidation can make rubber brittle and cause it to lose tensile strength. In addition, at high temperatures and pressures, oxygen reacts and damages inner tire liners and belt packages; nitrogen does not. Read On...

how long is it between bike tyre changes? sure as hell not long enough to cause damage from perishing!

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* Increased Safety – Under-inflated tires cause 90% of blowouts. Nitrogen provides more reliable pressure for reduced blowout potential. Read On...

think i covered this above. plus the majority of bike blowouts are caused by punctures, and nitrogen molecules ain´t that big that they´d block the hole!

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
Other benefits:

* Improved TPMS Performance – If you have a new car, you likely are plagued by a flashing light telling you your tire pressure is low. For example, one woman's light was going off every four to five weeks. After inflating with nitrogen, her light didn't reappear for 53 weeks!


this is the scary part. a light to tell you to inflate your tyres? what the hell are drivers thinking these days? and this woman didn´t check her pressures for 53 weeks? REVOKE HER LICENSE!!

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* More Predictable Pressure Fluctuation – NASCAR teams use nitrogen so they can more accurately predict tire pressure fluctuation. Regular compressed air can fluctuate considerably when water vapor is present. Read On...

extreme racing application and therfore irrelivent to road applications

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* Longer Rim Life – Rim rust caused by condensation from water vapor and other gases can get caught in valves and create slow leaks in tires. Nitrogen is completely dry, so it eliminates the potential for condensation.

the only way rust can get caught in the valve is by opening the valve and letting air out. then there is the remotest of possibilities that that COULD happen. the moment you run air through the valve back into the tyre, the rust (if it existed at all) would be blown back in again.

sorry, this one falls flat on it´s face as well



nitrogen promoting website wrote:
Why not eliminate all oxygen and water vapor?
What's right for me – 95% or 98%?

Numerous studies have proven that nitrogen in tires reduces the volume of gases that escape more quickly and cause damaging oxidation. However, research also has shown that nitrogen purity beyond a certain point does not provide additional benefits. In fact, with a nitrogen purity above 93.4%? in passenger tires, oxygen actually begins to migrate back into the tire. You can get all the benefits of nitrogen with a purity level between 93-98%.


in 28 years on the road, i´ve never come across a situation where a bit of rust or oxidation could cause a problem. if there is rust on a rim, i clean it before putting the tyre on as does everyone else i know back in england. takes 2 mins!

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* Bridgestone/Firestone researchers say that 93-95% nitrogen is all you need. Read On...

* According to Ford Motor Co., there is no difference between 96% and 99% nitrogen purity. Read On...


back to the percentage game again

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
Who Else Is Using Nitrogen?

* NASCAR - NASCAR teams use nitrogen because it allows them to more accurately predict tire pressure fluctuation. Nitrogen fluctuates with temperature change, but it does so less than when water vapor is present. Read On... In addition, higher nitrogen levels eliminate the explosive properties of oxygen (oxygen loses its explosive properties at around 9% or less) Read On... NASCAR uses bottled nitrogen for portability. The bottles are delivered to the track by Praxair. Read On...


extreme racing application

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* Commercial Airlines – The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) requires nitrogen in all commercial aircraft tires to eliminate the potential for water vapor (inherent in normal compressed air) from freezing at high altitudes. In addition, aircraft manufacturers such as Boeing use nitrogen membranes in their On-Board Inert Gas Generation Systems (OBIGGS) to "top" fuel tanks with nitrogen - an inert gas that does not support combustion.

exreme aeronatical application

nitrogen promoting website wrote:
* U.S. Government – NASA and the U.S. military use nitrogen for many of the same reasons it used in commercial aircraft.



yet again, extreme case.

----------------------------------------------------------

each time i´ve come across a website (and reps - i had one here in the shop the other day who didn´t have a clue what he was selling and thought that air was mostly oxygen) the same arguements and reasons are trotted out that don´t hold water in the day to day use of cars and motorcycles. the `leaking out´ and holding pressure better´ parts IMO are bloody dangerous as they are lulling people into a false sense of security about never having to check their tyre pressures.

yes, there is a time and a place for filling tyres with nitrogen, but on normal road applications any benefits are negligable if any at all.

i aint against the idea, i just don´t like to see folks paying out for something that there is, in the real world, no need for.

having said that, if they´re happier spending the cash and believing the blurb, go ahead and be happy!
 
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Last Edit: 2008/09/10 09:54 By erizo. Reason: spacing
 


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