Ricohoc wrote:
I don't care which party proposes garbage or violates the Constitution. Wrong is wrong, and bad is bad.

It's the whole smarmy attitude of being nice, and fair, and the warm fuzzy feeling that some people get when they 'think' their helping other folks...

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....with other peoples money, that has got us to where we are.

There's plenty of blame to go around. The attitude that the government can just fix whatever happens to be the problem of the day, by raising taxes, and increasing spending, has got to stop. To many, on both sides of the aisle, have decided that promising things, and buying votes from constituency using the other guys money, is just great.
The class warfare rhetoric that erupts around these issues, where those who have wealth are vilified, and those without are deified, is ignorant beyond all belief.

if they dont approve this I would suggest we then need to end Medicare since only one group is "given" it and not all citizens.
Interestingly enough a huge majority supports all ages having Medicare. why? well it's "free"....LOL

hrdbrgn wrote:
Illegal immigrant bullshit? They paid hundreds of millions in taxes?
Sales tax isnt paying taxes my friend. Thousands hanging out at home depot getting picked up for daily work/pay isn't paying taxes. And in fact ...$100's of millions in taxes is PALE to the BILLIONS they cost us in paying for their foodstamps,healthcare,babies birth AND healthcare,education,border patrol,police
and lawyers defending their right to have more rights than a citizen of this country.
Can you state anywhere a "pure democracy" works?[/quote]

I'm talking about actual income taxes. And none of them can claim them, because they aren't supposed to be here. http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

takehikes wrote:
if they dont approve this I would suggest we then need to end Medicare since only one group is "given" it and not all citizens.
Interestingly enough a huge majority supports all ages having Medicare. why? well it's "free"....LOL

Sorry, I believe you're incorrect. We pay into Medicare, just like we pay into Social Security. The group that benefits from Medicare is the group that paid into it.

It is Medicaid that is given to every Tom, Dick and Harry -- including illegal immigrants. It is also a burden placed on the states by the federal government.

Medicaid needs to end. Medicare is paid for by working Americans, but it is broken and has been robbed again -- this time by $500 billion to fund ObamaCare. Congress took money that Americans provided for Medicare and placed it into ObamaCare.

takehikes wrote:
if they dont approve this I would suggest we then need to end Medicare since only one group is "given" it and not all citizens.
Interestingly enough a huge majority supports all ages having Medicare. why? well it's "free"....LOL

Everybody loves free, .....as long as somebody else is footing the bill.
My mom was busy tithing to her church, and a couple of other organizations religiously affiliated. I told her she didn't have an income, and that I didn't think a tithe was needed considering she's living on charity(and was running out of money to pay her monthly bills).
She said "I do to have income"....."Social Security". I asked her if she didn't think she'd long ago drawn out more then she'd ever paid in....she's 92.
I tried to point out to her, that if she spent all of her money trying to play Mommy BigBucks, her children were going to have to start footing the bill, where her savings and investment interest and SS stopped. I told her she was using Obamanomics(that went over well).
I think she still believes she has an income, and, isn't on charity. It's interesting, how as soon as the government gives you an "entitlement". It's yours. You should get it every month, regardless of whether or not you paid in, as much as you get out(as with SS and Medicare), or, if your simply getting a handout, and haven't paid a red cent into the system anywhere at anytime.
The numbers regarding how much a person actually paid in before the 80's, and has drawn out, verses how much the average person pays in now, and can eventually draw out is startling. I wish I'd of saved the link.

I saw a graph the other day, when the CBO came out with the new estimates that doubled the cost of Obamacare. Based on the new estimates, in just about 10 or 15 years, the money needed to just pay for Obamacare, consumed our entire projected tax revenues for the year.
Nothing else got paid, it all went to service Obamacare. It is the Baby Boomers coming of age.

To answer the thought on medicare. Yeah, it's time for some serious debates about how to turn the clock back. The pols on both sides are scrambling to figure out how to save anything. Obamacare wasn't going to do anything but sweep it out of sight for awhile.
Even though we have the technology, and the werewithall to prolong anybodies life, the time has come for us to decide whether using somebody else's money to do it, is acceptable. Why should somebody else pay for my HC? Why should I get to squander millions of dollars trying to extend my life a few more years. If I can afford it(not in the form of a government program), fine. Otherwise, "that's life".

We started buying my moms meds from canada. She can pay for them, and spend less, then if she went through the insurance, and tried to get out of the donut hole by buying locally, so it'd be deductible.
She still maintains a prescription drug policy, just in case something serious comes along. She can pay for the policy, buy her meds outright, never turn the receipts into the insurance company, and still have more money, then when she was trying to do everything through the insurance company.

I had a arthroscopic surgery on my knee a year or so ago, and paid cash after negotiating with the surgery center, and doctor. I paid .40 cents on the dollar compared to what the same surgery would have cost with insurance.

It's insurance that drives cost up. Obamacare will be no different, except that what you get, will be determined by somebody else. It will drive the prices up, and the quality down. You'll be able to get cheap care of some kind, but I doubt very many will want it. Those who can afford it, will opt for something better, and the bureaucracy will bloom and thrive.

I'm legal,and work for a union,I don't like them trying to tell me who to vote for,so they can get what they want...And "f" the little working guy,
When we have trouble at work and file a grievance about it,it takes up to a year sometimes before it comes up for review,and usually the union rep.say's "OH-that has now become pass practice..." What are they for...greased palms always win.
I've worked and paid my taxes all my working life,and have been told in my early working carrier,retire at 55,then 57,then 62,now 67.
I should hunt for leprechaun's in stead,and get their pot of gold,like some of the other folks in this country....
I understand people need help...but sometimes the best thing is make them help their self's first...
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day...teach a man to fish and feed him for life.

Slvrknght wrote:
I guess I'm on the other side of things here. Why does everyone always equate these things with the domino effect? Granted, it would be awesome if the US had a true universal health care system (like most of the other first world countries on the planet), but working within the bounds of what is available, and trying to placate the health insurance companies, this is the "best" that can be done to provide health care for as many people as possible.

I really don't understand why there is such resistance in this country to manning up and helping out your fellow man (and before you jump all over the "illegal immigrant" bullshit, they paid hundreds of millions in taxes last year). There are way too many people in this country that feel that social justice is a passing convenience, useful only when it serves themselves.

And, read Marx again before you say that this plan is Marxist. He would have been appalled at such a thing, a select few pushing this idea on others. His entire push was that the people should rise up (the proletariat) to form a pure democracy.

Oh, let's just say I have an inside source and no illegal paid any income taxes. They can't because no illegal "immigrant" has a valid SS# or has a valid tax paying job(just ask their employer), plus lets take away the 30 million illegal aliens(sorry but the term immigrant is only for those who chose to wait in line and didn't invade our country and that are here taking American jobs and getting free health care and education already and we may just have enough money left in our pocket to help those in need not those who are too lazy to get a job or ust want to pop out children.

GreenMachine wrote:
SKWEARpeg wrote:
Without the mandate, obamacare is dead. The initial cost estimates of the plan, have already doubled. Without the forced participation in the program, it'll never get off the ground. You need, the 279 million people who already had insurance of their own, to subsidize insurance for the 30 million or so who don't

Agreed.

SKWEARpeg wrote:
This has always been about taking money from those who had HC, inorder to provide HC for those who don't. Simple redistribution of wealth via government mandate.

If you are going to call Obamacare redistribution of wealth (and I can see the argument), how do you feel about Romney's plan to eliminate capital gains tax? Those that would benefit most from this tax cut are the wealthiest of the wealthy, and at the expense of programs set up to benefit the poor. I would argue that this plan is also redistribution of wealth.

Capital Gains itself is redistribution of wealth. It is being taxed on the same money twice.

I had a arthroscopic surgery on my knee a year or so ago, and paid cash after negotiating with the surgery center, and doctor. I paid .40 cents on the dollar compared to what the same surgery would have cost with insurance.


the sad thing is that you actually still paid more than the doctor and surgery center would have gotten paid by medicaid or medicare or even private insurance, all of the above pay a % of what the fixed price is too

ie normal 15 min office visit cost 75 bucks
medicaid pays 21
medicare pays 40
private insurance pays 50

the docs will gladly take your money and it would be far cheaper without insurance