Slvrknght wrote:
His(Marx's) entire push was that the people should rise up (the proletariat) to form a pure democracy.

I won't nit pick the democracy part of your quote. Communism is so far away from democracy it's not even funny.

Hasn't this been Obama's dream from the jump? Isn't a "pure" democracy, more along the lines of what Chavez and the rest of the leftist Obama aligns himself with to our south, really want(folks nowadays, call it a "social democracy". It sounds better then authoritarian socialism)?
Marx, thought socialism was little more then a step in the right direction, and that capitalism was out and out flawed and doomed to fail. Marx's idea's regarding communism were along the lines that, communism was okay, but without a strong government to enforce its directives, it was toothless(there went the "pure democracy" right out the window). Marx also encouraged violent change and chaos, as a means to an end, that "end", being communism of his particular brand.
Are the OWS crowd interested in upholding the Constitution? Are the OWS crowd at all concerned with the communist socialist message, and anti capitalist agenda they hold near and dear?
Bill Ayers, who has been volunteering support and guidance to the OWS crowd, isn't shy about his political views, and they don't have anything to do with capitalism. Ayers may fall more into your idea of "pure democracy" when he's pandering to the crowds, but he and Obama both know, that without force they'll never be able to make everybody play by the rules they want.

Don't get me wrong, I'm really a Jeffersonian at heart. I would love to live in the type of Republic that Jefferson envisioned for this country.

I just wish the Republicans would get back to their roots and stop with all this religious bullshit, otherwise their opinions matter even less, in my opinion. They should be the ones championing the right for everyone to live the way they want to (gay, straight, whatever), and not deny people the right to get the health care they need/want. The problem is that so much of the garbage the right is spewing isn't what the founders envisioned, either.

Slvrknght wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm really a Jeffersonian at heart. I would love to live in the type of Republic that Jefferson envisioned for this country.

I just wish the Republicans would get back to their roots and stop with all this religious bullshit, otherwise their opinions matter even less, in my opinion. They should be the ones championing the right for everyone to live the way they want to (gay, straight, whatever), and not deny people the right to get the health care they need/want. The problem is that so much of the garbage the right is spewing isn't what the founders envisioned, either.


"and not deny people the right to get the health care they need/want."

Why stop with the type of HC 'some' people need/want? Why can't we extend this to the type of car "some" people need/want, or, the type of house "some" people need/want.
Since when, did HC become a human right? Why should somebody else, have to pay for your or my HC?

If by republicans roots, you are referring to conservatism, then how can you abolish the religious bu..connection..it. That same Judeo/Christian ethic, morality, and legal view, is what this country was founded on. It is the basis for our Constitution.

That whole concept of "championing peoples right to live the way they want", is a grand idea, as long as those people are paying their own bills. When they ask other people to support their lifestyle, that's another matter.

I think there are a whole lot of people who are so completely disconnected from history, that they are clueless about what our founders believed, and the understanding, that what they envisioned, was based on those beliefs. God given rights, free will, and personal responsibility, have their origination's in a Judeo/Christian foundation based on the old and new Testaments of the Bible.

I like Obama. I like a lot of what he stands for. But I have to admit, the individual mandate is unacceptable. It should be struck down by the Supreme Court without question.

I thought the individual mandate was about providing health care to everyone at a reasonable cost. People in the US pay almost twice what people in other countries pay for health care. We have somewhere around the 24th best health care in the world and 40 million citizens who do not have health care. Twenty percent of people going bankrupt is because of health care cost in the US. That does not happen to people in other countries.

My favorite uncle died because he was too proud to go to the hospital when he knew he couldn't pay the bill. He knew his wife would loose the house they had lived in for 40 years and already paid for. One of my buddies lost the house he lived in all is life (60 years) when he borrowed money to pay the hospital bill for cancer and could not repay the loan. That is not right.

My .02.

Slvrknght wrote:
I guess I'm on the other side of things here. Why does everyone always equate these things with the domino effect? Granted, it would be awesome if the US had a true universal health care system (like most of the other first world countries on the planet), but working within the bounds of what is available, and trying to placate the health insurance companies, this is the "best" that can be done to provide health care for as many people as possible.

I really don't understand why there is such resistance in this country to manning up and helping out your fellow man (and before you jump all over the "illegal immigrant" bullshit, they paid hundreds of millions in taxes last year). There are way too many people in this country that feel that social justice is a passing convenience, useful only when it serves themselves.

And, read Marx again before you say that this plan is Marxist. He would have been appalled at such a thing, a select few pushing this idea on others. His entire push was that the people should rise up (the proletariat) to form a pure democracy.



Illegal immigrant bullshit? They paid hundreds of millions in taxes?
Sales tax isnt paying taxes my friend. Thousands hanging out at home depot getting picked up for daily work/pay isn't paying taxes. And in fact ...$100's of millions in taxes is PALE to the BILLIONS they cost us in paying for their foodstamps,healthcare,babies birth AND healthcare,education,border patrol,police
and lawyers defending their right to have more rights than a citizen of this country.
Can you state anywhere a "pure democracy" works?

GreenMachine wrote:
I like Obama. I like a lot of what he stands for. But I have to admit, the individual mandate is unacceptable. It should be struck down by the Supreme Court without question.


Without the mandate, obamacare is dead. The initial cost estimates of the plan, have already doubled. Without the forced participation in the program, it'll never get off the ground. You need, the 279 million people who already had insurance of their own, to subsidize insurance for the 30 million or so who don't, plus bailout the failing medicare and medicade programs that are financially unsustainable in their present form..
This has always been about taking money from those who had HC, inorder to provide HC for those who don't. Simple redistribution of wealth via government mandate.

Lol...ya know...just the fact that that almost all of what the dems have tried to force on the rest of us doesn't really have an effect untill after 2012 (the elections) and BO has nothing to lose.....doesn't set off a serious alarm is truly puzzling.
What's next? You must EAT the food in order to find out what's IN the food?


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SKWEARpeg wrote:
Without the mandate, obamacare is dead. The initial cost estimates of the plan, have already doubled. Without the forced participation in the program, it'll never get off the ground. You need, the 279 million people who already had insurance of their own, to subsidize insurance for the 30 million or so who don't

Agreed.

SKWEARpeg wrote:
This has always been about taking money from those who had HC, inorder to provide HC for those who don't. Simple redistribution of wealth via government mandate.

If you are going to call Obamacare redistribution of wealth (and I can see the argument), how do you feel about Romney's plan to eliminate capital gains tax? Those that would benefit most from this tax cut are the wealthiest of the wealthy, and at the expense of programs set up to benefit the poor. I would argue that this plan is also redistribution of wealth.